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Toobin: What Proposition 8 ruling means for California, other states
Editor's note: Shortly after a federal appeals court ruled against California’s voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage Tuesday, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin answered questions about the implications of ruling and his reaction to it.
WHAT, IN A NUTSHELL, DID THE COURT DECIDE?
Proposition 8, the initiative passed by voters in 2008, is unconstitutional, a violation of the rights of gay and lesbian people who want to get married.
CAN SAME-SEX COUPLES IN CALIFORNIA GET MARRIED NOW?
No - not yet. The 9th Circuit panel left a stay in place that will continue as long as the defendants in the case continue their appeal. Since the defendants have indicated they will continue their appeals, it is likely to be months before same-sex marriages may resume.
ARE YOU SURPRISED BY TODAY'S RULING?
Not really. The background of the two judges in the majority, and the questions they asked in oral argument, suggested they were leaning this way. The rationale is somewhat surprising. Instead of ruling that there is a constitutional right to same-sex marriage in all circumstances, the court issued a narrower ruling. The judges said that the peculiar circumstances in California - a right to same-sex marriage withdrawn by a vote of the public - was unconstitutional.
Editor's note: California voters approved Proposition 8 in 2008, superseding a ruling by the California's Supreme Court, which had allowed same-sex marriages in California before that.
WILL THE CASE GO TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT?
I think the narrow approach in today's decision makes the case less likely to be reviewed by the Supreme Court. The court applies general principles that apply across the United States. Because this case only deals with the unique circumstances in California, I think the Supreme Court is less likely to review it.
So the good news for same-sex marriage supporters is this decision may mean that a conservative Supreme Court will decide not to take the case.
HOW IS THIS RULING GOING TO AFFECT OTHER STATES?
Not directly, because it deals only with the unique circumstances of California. But if this decision stands, it will mean that approximately one-fifth of the population of the United States will soon live in states with same-sex marriage. That's an enormous change from zero states a decade ago. By the standards of civil rights battles, that's extremely fast change.
WHAT'S YOUR BEST GUESS ON WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IN CALIFORNIA?
My best guess is that this decision will be the last word, though we will not know for sure for several months. I think it will be upheld in the 9th Circuit, but it will not go to the Supreme Court. It will not create a national precedent. But there are 39 million people in California - that’s a lot of people to have same-sex marriage. Technically, the decision applies only to California, but a victory in the nation's biggest state can create its own momentum.
Why bother to vote? 9 unelected people will decide the fate of Prop 8.
Just like it was nine unelected people who decided the fate of this country for eight years back in December 2000? Bet that decision was peachy-keen with you, huh?
better than 7 million uneducated voters who are bigots.
7 million bigots? typical liberal, everyone who disagrees is bigot , racist blah blah, get a life
So much better than a mob of people who believe in a bronze age war god.
The Mormon church funded the Prop 8 campaign. I think we should put Mormon doctrine up for a majority vote.
gorn, don't you have a buttless chaps party to go to?
James it doesn't shock me that you have buttless chaps on your mind. I'm sure you can find a pair in your closet.
.gorn, aren't you late for an anonymous bathhouse encounter? it is getting close to dark..........
James, your continuous references to gay activities really belies your true thoughts.I don't make such references, but then again I'm not gay. Maybe you should come out of the closet and be done with it.
" but then again I'm not gay" surrreeee you're not. don't they ever give you people new material besides the "oh you must be in the closet" whenever someone disagrees with you?
James, there is not a single word in anything I've posted to indicate that I am gay. By contrast, your every post drips with gay innuendo. I'm in favor of simple equal rights, but by your "logic" anyone who makes a comment in favor of equal rights therefore must be gay. Your obsession on the topic (e.g., references to buttchaps and bathhouses, subjects I know nothing about, but for which you clearly have great awareness), not to mention your gender confusion with your Jennifer alter-ego, speaks volumes about your psychological state.
Yeah, possibly the only nine people in the federal government who are immune to being bought off... As a liberal, I'd rather trust the conservative-leaning supreme court than whatever shadowy corporate lobbies have bought our legislatures.
Hey manuel,
Thats the whole point.
It never should have been put up for a vote,
You cannot vote away somebodys civil rights.
Its u-n-c-o-n-s-t-i-t-u-t-i-o-n-a-l..........
what part of that do you not get ?
"the questions they asked in 'oral' argument, suggested they were 'leaning' this way." Leaning this way, indeed. Heeyyyy!
So much for the will of the people
Jim Crow was the "will of the people" too. There's that funny thing called "equal protection"
I think Mike got you there.
Well, it was the will of the people that put segregation in place in the south and made marriage between blacks and whites a felony.
Slavery was will of the people. Should we still have that?
For a good long while, slavery was the will of the people. Maybe 52% of the people shouldn't try to limit freedom for all.
Liberals belong to the Church of Hollywood. Now bow and worhip the elites.
From your many post, I noticed that you generalize alot. I bet if I called you a racist, the probability of me being correct is fairly high.
Apparently you prefer religious elitists rather than judicial elitists. Either way, you are following men in fancy robes.
Yes "Truthhurts" seems an appropriate moniker. Something must be causing your severe aversion to it.
You are a typical low intelligence voter.
Maybe your butt hurts,
there is NO truth in your posts.
Next thing you know they will be wanting the right to vote, own homes and go to church; I tell you it's just going crazy out here!
It is insane. Can you imagine, people, mostly little, have rights! How dare they! Just who do they think they are!
Equality for All!
What s the right that these people say they don't have? From what I see, they have the same right to marry that I have. Or do they want some "special right" which seems like they do?
Hyper. Believe it or not they just want the right to marry same as everyone else. Not some "special" right. I think you may be confused. Do a google search on Prop 8 and read up on it. I think that should help.
@hyper
That's the whole point here, they don't have the same right to marry as you.
its 2012. Hell doesnt scare people that live in reality.
Reality is for those who can't handle science fiction.
Valid.
That's really a shame, because it should.
reality doesn't scare people that are familiar with hell
Not yet anyway.
No reality frightens anyone who understands hell.
You don't control what happens after you die, God is in control of eternity, it goes by His rules. Revel in your free will He has given you now, you'll give account for how you used it later.
You don't control what happens when you die, you've been given a free will for this present life which you call reality. But you are not in charge of eternity, and it doesn't run on your own terms.
You're not in charge of eternity
test post #3
By the way, to the "burn in hell" guy. There are worse fates than that; they could be forced to live on the same planet as a bunch of hate mongers. Wait, they already do; mission accomplished; no need to send them to hell.
no actually it is worse but we are forced to live with perverts who try to foist their immoral unnatural lifestyle on the rest of us. by the way drop the jim crow nonsense blacks are even more opposed to gay marriage then whites. it offends my black friends when gays equate themselves to blacks.....
James, I think you miss the entire point of the Jim Crow analogy, which is not surprising. That the alleged black friends you pal with are bigots is not surprising, because bigots tend to gravitate toward one another. I'm not sure why that would make you proud. In any case, in my 50+ years I have yet to have any "perversion" "foisted" upon me. Your hatred and paranoia is a sickness and you should seek help.
You have friends?
"foisted?!" Are you receiving a lot of gay marriage proposals?
These moderators... Geez...
What it means is, voters no longer have rights. All you have to do if you disagree, is find one of the leftist appellate courts, and your done.!
Maybe if people weren't trying to vote other people into misery, we won't need judges to stop them. That is why we have judges. We are ruled by law, not the will of the masses. The masses liked slavery and Jim Crow too.
I'd like to put a bill on the ballat to take away conservatives right to vote. After all if the majority agrees on something then it must be the right and legal thing to do.
Worked for the righties in 2000....
I agree with Flappy. Eliminate the vote of the right. They are loony and should not be allowed to vote or marry or they will procreate causing yet more destruction.
Slavery and Jim Crow were self-perpetuating because they specifically made it difficult for the people being oppressed to make their case to the electorate. No otherwise eligible voters were prevented from voting in Prop 8. Gay people were perfectly free to make their case and they failed in accordance with the procedures in place. They wanted a special privilege, and the people of California didn't want them to have it. A majority didn't want the right to marry someone of the same sex. It's that simple. Typically for leftists, when the democracy they claim to cherish goes against them, they just find a way around it. How many times do we hear lefty politicians cite polls to claim popular support for their causes? Well, it's all BS.
I'm sure when Obamacare gets tossed by the Supreme Court, those same lefties will be the ones decrying the courts ignoring the will of the people.
Since when is the simple act of "getting married" a special priv? I have it. Why am I so special? What makes me more special that my gay friends who cannot have that same right? What is so special about this right that only some are allowed to have it?
As for HCR, totally different animal. And it wouldn't surprise me to see the current SCOTUS kill some parts of it. After all, they allowed Super PACS to flourish unabated. HUGE mistake of far greater import than "gay marriage."
gays and liberals are so predictable and smug. whoever opposes their pet protest of the day is a hillbilly, rightwinger, racist, bigot, ignorant etc. the gall of these pretentious boors. foisting their ridiculous ideas on everyone. no happy meal toy, free the enslaved whales, gay rights. what nonsense!
From what I can tell, you're one of the things you listed.
and you prove my point smug liberal............
Ahhh, Jennifer, every word in your post paints you as a pretentious boor.
By the way, it's interesting that "James" posted that it was "his" point, when the original post was made by "Jennifer". More evidence that James/Jennifer needs to come out of the closet and deal with his/her gender confusion.
I'm all for giving happy meal toys to gay white whales. Thanks Jennifer.
Hugs Jennifer, from your gay fans.
#### I noticed that also......
gorn by any other name
By the way, it's interesting that "James" posted that it was "his" point, when the original post was made by "Jennifer". More evidence that James/Jennifer needs to come out of the closet and deal with his/her gender confusion.
Okay, let's get the ball rolling on incest and polygamy now. Same arguments apply. "It shouldn't matter what consenting adults choose to do or who they love."
Yes, we should get the ball rolling on those issues. Are you afraid those prohibitions are not defensible under scrutiny? How cowardly.
There are no valid reasons against gay marriage. There are at least a couple of valid reasons against adult consensual incest (birth defects) and polygamy (an unequal contract is inherently abusive). Only an intellectual coward would be afraid to discuss the merits of any behavioral prohibition and prefer taboo by fiat.
God made Adam and Eve not Adam & Steve. Sodom and Gmorrah is an example for you "pink flag" folks to thing about. Come to St. Louis and act silly like you do in CA. CA is truly the land of fruits and nuts.
In order: God didn't make man or woman, man and woman made God. The sin of Sodom, according to most Biblical and Talmudic scholars, was the fact that the people of Sodom did not extend hospitality to the angels, not gay smexy times. And I know a lot of gay men in St. Louis, including some who would beat the tar out of a sailor.
God spelled backwards is dog.
Can you think of anything new to say? Better yet, can you think? Right, you let the herd do it for you. Typical conservative.
California is also the land of your god, Ronald Reagan. Perhaps you forgot that in bumpkinland.
Sailor, God spoke to me and said he no longer wishes to be associated with you... He also told me to build a tower in Babel, kill my kid and to invade Iraq.
"God" didn't "make" ANYTHING. There ISN'T any god...religion is a human invention. None of that fairytale nonsense exists...WAKE UP
Right on Capn mike. Sounds like sailor is lonely. Throw him in the focsle. Let the drugs have at him.
@sailor
so, um, exactly where did gay people come from? Being gay they can't exactly procreate and yet they haven't died off in thousands of years. So, logically, your God is making Adam and Steve, isn't he/she?
And don't hand me the ol' argument "being gay is a choice" – who would EVER choose this persecution as a way of life if it were truly a choice?
Hello Sailor, hang around the docks much ?
Soddom and Gammorah is not a gay story.
If you believe the Adam & Eve story, all of mankind is from incest.
If you like using that book, you should at least read it.
The most depressing thing I have seen in all of this discussion is the ridiculously high number of people making comments that clearly have no idea of the role of the courts and the way our country is actually governed. What ever happened to basic civics courses? The people making comments to the effect that the "will of the people" has been ignored, or suggesting that the courts should not make rulings in this situation, should stop voting until they go back and learn some basics.
Send them on friend. We have lots of beautiful women here in St. Louis who might make a man out of your kind.
St Louis? So you are offering a crime-infested stinkhole in trade for a santorum-greased stinkhole?
Hell? Is that some place in Georgia? You do know there's no Santa Claus, right?
What do you mean? When I came back from the beach I had Sandy Clothes...
That's funny coming from the clowns that think they can try to overturn the will of the majority of Americans. You better put some extra padding on your rectum on election day. Payback of 2010 was just a warmup!!!
You cannot count yourself and the beings that live in your head and state that the total is a "majority of Americans". For all we know, the beings that live in your head are illegal immigrants. And let's see where you are on the morning of November 7th. You'll probably be eating breakfast, only allowing a single, malformed tear to emerge, as you go off to your dead-end low-paying job, ready to see that soul-crushing day merge into the others you've experienced.
Because Mitt will really turn out the GOP vote. Perhaps you should reconsider.
I'll pay any amount of money to see you on the morning of November 7th, shedding one single manly tear for your "dead" country into your corn flakes as you get ready for your job at the quick lube. And I'll still be partying.
You do realize the Tea Party is basically on life-support, right?
The majority of Americans now support gay marriage. In the 18-35 demographic, SEVENTY percent support gay marriage. All the old folks who were alive when gays had to hide in shame and Jim Crow laws were enforced are dying off at a rapid clip.
It won't matter soon whether it's by the courts, legislatures, or by popular vote (except in the South of course).
A majority of Californians supported Prop 8. So what's your point? If a majority support something, we should have it; if a majority don't support something, we should have it anyway?
What would you prefer, watch that whale gov christie writeand sweat in bed or two svelte gay dudes in bed?easy choice.
@greg: umm.. none of the above?
Again with the majority BS. Prop 8 passed by FOUR PERCENTAGE POINTS. Four percent is not significant.
The funny thing is is you thinking you're still the majority. Guess you haven't seen the polls lately, eh?
lets have a vote to steralize inbred white trash rednecks present company included
This comment is pretty gay, considering it came from a bigot.
I am an undecided – but the data does not support your bluster; it will be razor thin and a wild ride – no one knows where this is going, you do not even have a nominee yet. Stop pretending you can see what no one can.
What if the majority voted to re-institute slavery of some minority group? So YES reason for the courts to exist is to over turn the will of the majority when they vote to create un-constitutional laws. So not only can they too it but that is why we have courts
Slavery.
I'm pretty sure Hell is in Alabama.
No, it's in Somalia.
No, its in Texas.
It is Alabama.
Mississippi.
Drop in for a visit and you'll find your Deliverance!
actualy its in michigan, near battle creek . did you know hell freezes over every winter? (except this winter)
It's actually a few miles north in South Carolina.
@max: of course there's a santa claus.. how sad it must be to be you..
Hell is in Michagan.
love your response!
for sure you don't know about the Bible, I pray for you
Read it...it's an interesting collection of fairytales, interspersed with a few historical factoids to make it more believable, but the bottom line is that it's a bunch of superstitious babbling, lies and nonsense written by highly superstitious people and re-written by a bunch of churches who simply want to control peoples' minds...and I see they did a really good job on yours.
Don't pray for me, pray for the NFL. C"mon, the bible says we're not allowed to touch the skin of a pig on the Sabbath so those guys are toast!
See what happens when you take only what you want from Bible passages?
..aa..the book that said its OK to sell your daughter to slavery ? the one from the bronze age ? Nope I have not red it.
The Bible. What's that? An edited work taken by men from a selection of literary submissions. Only four books were chosen out of over twenty submissions (with considerable discrepancies), written by various men over a considerable period of time.
Yes, please keep praying. Because that changes so much in the world.
So did you actually stop and pray for this person or these people? If so, there's no reason to post this comment. Just say your prayer and be done with it already. And if not, then your comment "I pray for you" is simply used to degrade those it's directed at ...probably not what prayer was intended for.
and I'll think for you
Unaware One, everybody knows about the Bible. More and more human beings every day are realizing that the Bible is just another best-selling book, as is any first reader about the exploits of Jack and Spot.
Hm...now there's an idea: Jack and Spot...I wonder what Mae West could make of that concept.
Yes it is, Gwinnett county to be exact. I think karen handle is from there.
Come down to Georgia and say that, coward.
Get back to your cross burning.
Aren't you late for a klan meeting?
I'm here now. In Fulton County. Care to make a date with a Marine?
You're right Santa Clause is a fraud.......like you!
Since its Kitchen in in New York I'd bet the rest of it is there too.
But what about the guy at the mall?
Santa Claus, Indiana.
Georgia....Mississippi...Texas...basiclaly any of the states that are in the bottom 15 in terms of education...take your pick.
Hell is a little town in Michigan. It's actually quite pleasant.